Talk:Dumbarton

Dumbarton was not the British kingdom of Alcluith, nor is it likely to mean Dun breaton - the fort of the Britons. It's name first appears in the Gough map of c. 1360 as Dombre tayne, and then in subsequent maps in the following sequence

c. 1360 – dombre tayne – Gough map c. 1450 – Dubretayn – John Harding 1572 – dombreton - Thomaso Porcacchi 1573 – Dumberton - Abraham Ortelius

It was in 1573 that Abraham Ortelius associated the Clyde to Alcluith when he wrote the phrase Cloyd flu olim Alcluth, Clyde river once Alcuith, creating the link to Bede's Acluith - but he states that the river was called Alcluth, which Bede said was the name of the "city", while it is assumed from Bede's statement that the river was just called Cluith.

It was Bishop John Leslie (1578) that probably created the link between Dumbarton and Alcluith, when he changes the earlier versions of then name and calls it Donbriton, matching the name he gave to the Firth – Donbriton. But Bishop Leslie's map has one fatal flaw - he changed the location of the Novatarum Promontory mentioned by Ptolomey and moved it further North to Kintyre, a region that Ptolomey had called the Epidium Promontory. The reason for this would be that he was maintaining the relationship between the location of the "British" fort in respect to the position of the Novantarum promontory - he moved the location of Alcluith and changed the name of Dumbarton to suit.

This link between Dumbarton is the further reinforced in the maps by Mercator (1595) and Timothy Pont (1583-96), however Nicolas de Nicolay, produced his charts c. 1583 and named the town as Dumbritain. Curiously Mercator though gave a different name for Dumbarton as Dunbritoun - toun being the equivalent of the modern town, and removing the association to Britain or Britons from the name.

Alsp Bede's statement says the Scots settled in the North side of the Bay of Alcluith, which is problematic as Dumbarton is itself on the North side of the Firth of Clyde, and North of the River Clyde.

Clud or cluith is a celtic term meaning transportation or carrier. Clud appears directly on river symbols opposite Glascu (Glasgow) in one of Matthew Paris very basic maps (c. 1250), but Glasgow was built on a Ford in a shallow part of the river and the symbol appears in the position where this ford or crossing would have been. unlike other river symbols such as the Wear this river symbol does not extend to the Sea and stops some way short. InitialIy I considered this to be indicative the river may have been silted up and viewed as not travelling this far, however I have since realised this is because it only applies to the valler where the clud ford/crossing) exists.

In the most detailed of Matthew Paris' map which shows he river going past Glasgow and reaching the sea, he does not give the river clyde a direct name - he calls it, in latin, the River than became CLydesdale, and appears to put a date/year of 1208 next to this. Clydesdale was created as an administrative district by David I in the mid 12th century so this would indicate that the River Clyde obtained it's name later than this date - therefore the clud - the "crossing" point gave it's name to the district - Clydesdale - the valley of the ford/crossing, which in turn gave it's name to the river. This would appear to be reinforced by the appearance of the Clyde on the Gough map of c. 1360 where it is written as an & clide (with a clear latin ampersand symbol between the 2 words) - an being a derivative of the celtic word Aln meaning a river. Aln precedes the word clyde so it is the dominant name of the two and appears and the confluence of the 2 rivers that form the clyde - i.e. where the molendinar burn and the clyde meet, and where the shallowest part of the river is that Glascu was built upon. An & clide refers to river and crossing, so it seems clear that the river clyde that we know today was likely to have been called the Aln, or a variant until the early medieval period. Therefore the Clyde wasnot called the clyde at the time of Bede in the 8th century.

Matthew Paris lists another River clud though - which is strategically located at the end of Hadrian's wall. This is very important. The last fort at the end of Hadrians wall was built in the 1st century AD on a sandstone ridge overlooking the Solway and the settlement has remained in continuous occupation until the present day, with roman remains still visible up to the 18th century - this is Maryport, which was called Ellenfoot up to 1749. Ellen is a variant of the Celtic word Aln, and it sits on the River Ellen - another variant of the word Aln. The clud refers to a crossing, and Matthew Paris has located this river at the end of Hadrian's wall, which is where Maryport is more or less located. And crucially Maryport is on the south side of the Solway.

Some important points to note 1. There is no evidence whatsoever, archaeological or otherwise, supporting Irish settlement in Argyll & the Kintyre peninsula at any point during or after the Roman period of occupation. 2. There is extensive evidence of settlement from Ireland occurring continuously from the 6th century BC to the 1st century AD in the Solway Clyde region, with axe head find and the construction of irish style crannogs as far as Oakbank in Perthshire. That would be 700 years of Gaelic Irish settlers to South West Scotland, where we see Gaelic place-names in settlements that can be dated from the 3rd/4th centuries and show a continuity of settlement. 3. In the 1st century AD, the Roman General encountered an exiled Irish prince in the Nithsdale region in the South West of Scotland. Scottish and irish legends state that the Scots emigrated to Scotland with their leader, and exiled Irish prince called Caibre or Eochaid Riata. 4. Bede, Nennius and all early and medieval sources are quite clear in the sequence of settlement was Britons, Picts, Scots and then Romans. The archaeology of South West Scotland bears this out. 5. The tribe in Scotland was, like Dum Barton, known as the Dum noni. Dumbarton's name would originate from the name of the tribe Strathclyde - the term Dunbarton is a later term that arose during the latter part of the 16th century and appears to be based on a dubiously aligned map by Bishop John Leslie and therefore is a recent and not an ancient name. 6. Dum or Dumb refers to the tribe re could be the Gaelic word for a king and ton, is probably related to the Gaelic word tain meaning cattle, herd or spoil or plunder. Built in the 5th/6th century this probably relates to the part of Britain taken by Fergus Mor MacErc. the spoil of the King of the Dumnoni, or given that wealth may have been measured in livestock, the cattle of the King of the Dumnoni (or the king of Dumnonia - which I think is far, far more likely to be in Strathclyde, with it's 6 cities named by Ptolomey, it's extensive area and references to the Dumnoni in various placenames) Dumfries, Dumbreck etc.

There is far more detail and even greater supporting evidence for this in the book "The Evolution of the Picts" published on Amazon

That's an interesting one. Assumptions depend on getting the calibration right in the first place. If we assume a fact and get it wrong, then all the assumptions that follow from it are wrong, and facts which seem to collaborate may be based on the same assumptions. It just takes one weak assumption. Therefore we should, as you say, re-examine an identification if it comes from just one source.

However, in this case I believe the identification of Alcluith with Dumbarton is correct. I dug through Bede, Early Charters of Scotland and even rifled Taliesin in case he mentioned any relevant place.

The name of the Clyde is apparently ancient, though I have never seen a firm etymology. Claudius Ptolemaeus has 'Clota Aestuarium', so the name must predate the coming of the Gaels. If it is from a word for 'ford', then both the Clyde and the Forth have the same name! It might be a common river name, like the countless rivers named 'Esk'; the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle has 'Clede' apparently for the River Clwyd.

The modern name of Dumbarton is a modern spelling. A charter of David I has 'Roberto de Dunbretane clerico nostro'. Other records have 'Dunbodeuin' and 'Dumbodelin', while a statute of James II has 'the said castell of Dumbertane'. It seems to change over the ages.

Bede gives a description of Britain in Chapter 12 of his Ecclesiastical History, saying that the lands of the Picts are sundered from those of the Britons as two sea estuaries lie between from the east and from the west though they do not meet. He adds that on the right bank of the western estuary stands the city of Alcluith, 'which means the Rock of Cluith as it stands by the river of that name'. Later in the chapter he describes the Antonine Wall as running from Penneltun near Abercorn westwards to the vicinity of the city of Alcluith.

The only place that fits the description on both places is Dumbarton.

RB (talk) 23:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC)